[PoollShark]

Larry, how do you aim? Also would you reccomend others aim the same way? Should players at different levels aim differently? I`ve heard a lot about aiming systems and I`m getting confused. I`ve always aimed by feel, if that makes any sense to you.

Thanks, Joe

[FASTLARRY]

I teach 3 people, Hoppe, Greenleaf, Mosconi, I teach what they did, how they did it. Hoppe taught his aim system to Greenleaf who taught it to Mosconi who taught it to me, that is what I use.

Those were the 3 greatest players of all time so I assume they had that one figured out. I don't see any one running 500 balls today do I?

Come to Atlanta and I will teach it to you. I just refuse to attempt to do that over the internet because I am convinced this can not be done, you must be one on one with the student. You trying to get this is why you are so confused. Don't make me add to it.

My refusal to go into it is actually doing you a favor. I won't teach the draw here for the same reasons. Things that I can teach, I am most generous with my time and knowledge.

[PoollShark]

When you say you teach Hoppe, Greenleaf, and Mosconi I assume you mean you teach their methods. Did they all use exactly the same system or did the systems they use differ?
As far as someone running 500 balls in this day and age it will never happen but not because no one has the ability. The reason we`ll never see it is because straight pool is dead. There are guys out there with the skills to make this happen. That would only happen if they made straight pool their main game. That ain`t ever going to happen.
As far as me going to Atlanta, I don`t see that as a real possibility in the near future due to work and family commitments that I have. I guess I`ll have to keep doing this the way I always have. If you ever make it up to the Boston area then drop me an email and I`ll be happy to meet you for a personal lesson.

Joe

[FASTLARRY]

All of their system was the same, nose across the shaft at a 45 degree angle, same as I do. Mosconi looked at the ob last, Hoppe the CB last. I actually teach doing both. Most of my standard shots my eyes are on the ob but some shots I see the cb and nothing else at impact. I break the same way.

I come to New England every spring. Send me an email and when I am in town I'll get in touch. A phone # would be nice too.

I teach a modern snooker stance, I hold the cue in a cross between Greenleaf and Mosconi, I teach their stroke and follow through, their bridges, their aim. Some of their things are out of date, but most of their basics are timeless.
Send to fastlarry@bellsouthpool.net

Zugland could make a big run, the problem is if they run 150 and out they quit, they should let them keep going.

If I ran pool I would bring back straight, buy a million dollar policy from Lloyds to be paid for the first person to run over 525. That would do it.

[Black-dot]

I just did my best to see if I could find an angle that would allow my two eyes to focus in such a way, varying angles without end, that would allow me to see absolutely straight on, without parallax. The 45 degree angle thing works for me in some circumstances, not in others. What in the world is going on? Well, the farther away the object ball and cue ball are from the pocket the more critical is the aim. Pretty simple, if you think about it. If english is added to the shot, good luck. First of all, learn how to pot the ball using center ball, pure clean center ball.

From what I can tell, the best thing going is just one eye, lined up perfectly centered over the shaft, with a perfect pure stroke, delivering a perfect center ball shot. Any deviation from that and watch the beautiful curves and wanderings of the cue ball and/or the object ball as it head towards -- or away from -- the pocket.

I wouldn't be surprised, and it's something that is impossible to verify absolutely today, as Mosconi and Greenleaf aren't here today to ask, if their eyesight was pretty darn "perfect" insofar as seeing the absolute point on the object ball to shoot for was concerned.... Sooooooooo.... do your best to eliminate inconsistencies, and see if shooting the cue ball like a bullet works for you......

For me, when the object ball is rather close to the pocket and I can cheat it more or less at will, english and power and so on can do wonders to help me set up for the next shot.

When the shot needs to be extremely precise though, I'll sure do my best to make it happen with a pure clean center ball stroke......... Good luck, may the rolls always go your way ('cept when playin' me !! :-D )

Cheers !!

Black-dot

[FASTLARRY]

What a fabulous post, it's all right on the mark, bravo, 5 stars dude....

I am convinced all of these great champions had 3 or 4 things that made them what they are, grew up playing as babies in their old mans pool hall, had a god given advanced level of hand eye co ordination, but all had outstanding vision, 20-/10.
Hold you index finger up in front of your nose out at arms length, what do you see, a blurred finger. Now move your head to the left or right and the finger will come into focus. Do it again, head still and make the eyes snap into focus. That is the problem and that is what you have to do on the cue ball.

Some advice from the past:
Ives said to be a great champion you had
to have two things, great vision, and great concentration. If Ives had not drank him self to death in his mid 30's he would have been Hoppe, he was the man of his time before Hoppe.

Hoppe concluded this 252 page book with 36 lessons. His lesson
number 1 was concentrate. This was the one he listed first as the
most important to learn. He said mastery of the game of billiards is
largely a state of mine. The mental attitude can be summed up simply
in these 3 things. Knowing what you can do, knowing what you want to
do, concentrating on the immediate shot.

Hoppe said and I quote"Concentrate; keep your mind focused on the ivory that lies before you.
Harness your brain and don't let it wander off and begin to jump fences just as you are about to shoot. Keep your facilities keenly alert on the immediate problem and don't relax until your cue tip has gone through and finished it's job. Concentrate!
It's the greatest mental exercise in the world, in billiards or anything else. end of quote.

You have now heard from the greatest player of all
time. You have the blueprint. You can now clearly see Hoppe's greatest skills and weapons was his knowledge he put to use on how to play using Zen skills and making high runs deep in the zone.
If you are wondering if this Zen thing is for real and if it can work for you, It made Hoppe the greatest player of all time 72 years ago.
The techniques he used, still work today


[ Edited by FASTLARRY on 2004/10/14 14:01 ]

[FASTLARRY]

AIM HOW DO THE PROS DO IT?
5 pages preface by Fast Larry Guninger 10-14-04

The most difficult thing any one new to the game faces is trying to make cuts. They just can not see the cut angles. I have long written and taught that you have to pot a million balls until the game gets easy and you see the cut angles. How long does that take most people who don’t play every day, 10 to 14 years? I teach when you miss a cut in practice, keep setting it up until you make it. If you miss a cut in a match, diagram it and then make your self shoot it 100 times. You must drill these cut angles into your brain. There is no shortcut to this, no magic system that gives it to you over night.

I agree with almost all of what is written here, especially what Mizerak, Massey, Ellin and Hopkins wrote. Greenleaf lined up this way. If he then wanted to use one tip right English to twirl the cut in, when he moved the shaft now one tip over right maintaining that same parallel line to center, he allowed his head to float with the shaft and both settled in on this new line of aim. This in time happens automatically with no conscious thought or direction.

My POL aim system is not covered here which is part of my system I only go into one on one with a private lesson with a student.
I use a modified ghost ball aim system that takes into account cling.
There are so many other issues here they did not get into but they did give you a lot.

This discussion about aim occurred on RSB and here is a copy of that post.
>In the July 1995 issue of P&B is an article by Shari Stauch that
>is the best thing I've seen in print about the question, "How do
>the pro's aim?"

Several people were interested in the Pool and Billiard article that had aiming 'secrets' of several pros. I found the article, which is in the July, 1995 issue. For brevity, I'll just post the relevant points. For my 2 cents worth, I don't see any secrets here. Just look at the spot you need to hit, and practice until it becomes second nature. Anyway, here goes:

Excerpts from article written by Shari J. Stauch (who hopefully won't mind this):

AIMING- THE SECRET OF POOL? OR BASIC INSTINCT...
Dozens of Top Pros Give Up Their Aiming Secrets.

[Paraphrasing the opening paragraphs]: The "ghost ball" teaching method is best, and several, though not all pros agree. Instinct eventually takes over when aiming, but it is nice to have a system to fall back on when you're not seeing the shots very well that day.

THE GHOST BALL AND OTHER CREATIVE VISIONS
Vicki Paski: I picture the ghost ball; seeing a ball behind the object ball that I want to replace with my cue ball. This is easier for most people than finding an exact spot on a round object that you must hit with another round object.

Dawn Hopkins agrees: The ways I do it is look at object ball to pocket, and picture the ghost ball, and then extend a line straight from the cue ball to the object ball.

Roger Griffis: slight variation to this. I use the ghost ball and dissect the ball into 90 degrees. Both kind of give you a picture of where you hit the ball, then, once you learn it you begin to play by feel.

Bonnie Arnold: sticks with visualizing where the ball has to hit the pocket when I'm aiming, I look at the pocket and I visualize where the ball has to go in the pocket. Then I look at the spot on the object ball, and visualize the cue ball to the object ball to the pocket.

Steve Mizerak: The way I find the target or contact point on the OB (object ball) is to visualize an imaginary line from the back of the pocket through the OB. During my warm up strokes, my eyes move back and forth between the cue ball and the target point. I use one or two low strokes, as if I'm going to draw the ball, on all shots because that gives me confidence in hitting the cue ball correctly -- because the bottom of the cue ball is the
Strongest foundation to build on. [My note - I still don't understand why
Some pro's do this] I have no special tricks for cutting the ball or
Shooting a ball down a rail....It's very hard to tell a person how to aim.
Pocketing balls is an instinctive skill that is learned from trial and
Error. It can't be mastered from playing once a week. Instead of hitting twenty balls to learn a shot, I hit two hundred balls. I haven't found an easier way yet.

BASIC INSTINCTS
"Steve brings up a solid point that was repeated by many professionals.
Aiming has become second nature, muscle memory has taken over. Trial and error over hundreds of thousands of shots made and missed by top pros over dozens of years of competition -- heck, who needs to visualize anymore?..."

Kelly Oyama: There is no set way for me. I just look at the pocket and look at the ball and assume I then know where to hit it. But I'd like to read the article-- maybe there's a better way.

Lorie Jon Jones: Aiming comes naturally for me, where I've always just known where to hit. It's very difficult for me to teach people to aim because of this.

Mike Massey: I've tried a lot of systems but mostly you have to play from feel. You have to practice all types of feel, practice all type of hits. To start you can use the angle of the half ball hit a lot because it's easy to judge. You just build your instincts and you muscle memory -- that's
What I did.

Tony Ellin: I would say that aim is basically trial and error and instinct, using your judgment, I may look at the path from the pocket through the object ball, but I hardly do that anymore. You develop an instinct for aiming from playing all the time.

Howard Vickery: There's no real way for me to explain it except to hit it with the right impact. Your hand-eye coordination compensates for the difference in the roundness of the balls.

"...whatever your original aiming method...does the hand-eye coordination eventually begin to compensate for failings in your method, optical illusions or tired eyes? If so, how long does it take?"

Earl Strickland: I've played so much that I don't have to think about it. But I also spin the balls in, as I think many of the pros do; they're using so much English all the time. Pros spin the ball in the hole and that's mostly from feel. If you’re really going to learn to aim, you have to know better how to spin the ball, and what effect that's having on the OB. Amateurs who don't spin the ball will have an easier time with straight aiming.

Mark Jarvis: I aim by portions of the ball, I don't aim at one particular spot -- but then again, I'm on the loser's side! But seriously, the portion of the ball I'm looking at depends on where I'm sending the cue ball. For me, most of it is feel and memory from shooting each shot many times. X MARKS THE SPOT - in contrast to a portion of the ball and basic instinct theory is the "single spot."

Ewa Mataya Laurance offers the most detailed explanation of this theory. Aiming is a four-step process. First, draw a line from pocket through the center of the ball to find the spot you want to hit. Then make up your mind, before you get down on the shot, as to whether or not you need to apply English. Find your new exact spot and just keep your eye on that. Once you're down on the shot, move your eyes back and forth between cue ball and OB. Everybody says look at the OB, but that's not enough, look at that tiny spot. If you miss then, it could be a problem with your mechanics, not your aim.

Nikki Benish: This is how I learned, but I doubt if I use it anymore because when you're a pro every shot you see you've seen and shot a least a hundred times before. On the toughest shots I was taught to try to pick out a spot on the OB, combined with the imaginary cue ball method. By finding the spot, I mean like if the OB was a stripe ball, maybe I could mark my aim spot as right at the edge of the stripe and the white on the ball, or say to myself, on this one, hit just to the left of the number.

Allen Hopkins: "I aim at a spot on the OB with center cue ball. A lot of it
Is feel, when you play as often as I do? You start finding that spot real easily. Occasionally I'll aim the cue stick toward the pocket through the ball to find that spot.

George Breedlove: I know when I'm shooting, I'm looking at the OB when I pull the trigger, but I find my spot on the ball on the table, looking at the base of the ball where it touches the table, not at any actual spot on the ball.

Tommy Kennedy: I look at the OB straight ahead, and then look little by little to the right or left of the ball. I keep going until I see the spot where it's going to hit the bigger part of the pocket.

Michelle Adams: I stand behind where the cue ball and OB are in a straight line, and then I move to where I know I have to hit it. Somebody explained this to me once, and I thought it wasn't very smart, but it works!

Jim Rempe: First of all you have to aim differently with different cues, because some cues deflect more than others. A cue also deflects more or less depending on how hard you hit the ball. I play with a Meucci, that doesn't deflect, so I aim directly at the contact point. I also use the ghost ball theory, but it's more repetitious in you mind when you play a lot. In other words, I don't really visualize the ball anymore, it's automatic.

Belinda Bearden: I pick out the point on the OB in line where the pocket must be struck. Depending on the angle, you can tell which part of the cue ball must hit the OB. But any time English is applied, a slight adjustment for deflection must be made. Depending on the amount of English applied, you will be aiming with a different part of the cue ball to hit the OB.

AIMING WITH WHITEY
Another theory, aiming with the cue ball:

Nesli O'Hare: The technique I use was taught to me by Efren Reyes.
According to Efren, there are three kinds of hits on any OB. First, there's looking at the center of cue ball to the point of aim if the shot is a full ball hit. If not, you can divide the OB into four quarters, sighting your cue ball edge to the point of aim. When using inside English with a medium to hard stroke, you don't change the point of aim. With outside English, you aim a sixteenth of an inch fuller on the OB than you normally would. But, all bets are off when using a soft stroke, because of deflection, etc.

Efren Reyes: further explains...When you put a lot of English on the cue ball you adjust a little bit, often aiming exactly at the contact point of an OB. So it very much depends on my next shot how I will aim.

Sammy Jones: (husband/coach of Lorie Jon Jones) agrees. It depends on the shot itself. When aiming at a straight in shot, you're aiming both balls directly in the center. If aiming at a thin cut shot, you imagine the edge of the cue ball hitting the edge of the OB.

Ray Martin: I use parts of the cue ball. In other words, if you were to have a straight in shot, you're aiming with the middle of the cue ball to the middle of the OB. Now let's say the OB stays in the same place and you move the cue ball six inches to the left. Now you're aiming with only a part of the cue ball. I'm not going to stress 1/2 ball, 1/4 ball here, because that's way too broad -- the difference could be two degrees or a sixteenth of an inch! The important thing to remember is the spot on the OB never changes. It is a constant.

ON CUE
...Some aim with the cue stick itself, but with a great diversity in their methods.

Reed Pierce: I take the cue stick and try to line it up in line. I just pick the spot in the center of the OB, and aim towards that. Even if you need to cut a ball real thin, you just still need a square hit, so you aim for the contact point with your cue.

Robin Bell: When I line up on the cue ball to the OB, I first visualize the actual location on the OB where I need to hit it. Then I put my cue down towards that spot. When I'm down shooting I'm sending the cue straight through the cue ball to that spot on the OB. Picturing it that way allows me to always follow through.

Mary Guarino: I aim with the shaft of my cue stick. If you're hitting a straight-in shot, obviously, you cue is in the center. I imagine the cue ball is in quarters. In example for 15 degree cuts, you split the quarter. For a thirty degree cut I split the edge with my shaft and 45 degree cuts I use the edges of my shaft.

Nick Varner: What I do is use parallel lines. The first line I see is a line from the edge of the cue ball toward the contact point on the OB. I keep my shaft on a parallel line to that and if you're cutting the ball to the left of that line, it will be on the right. But if you're using left English, it will be the same line, and with center or right English, it will be parallel. Once I shoot, my eyes are actually focused on the contact point on the OB.

YET ANOTHER ANGLE
Lorie Jon Jones: Sometimes I look at the angle between the cue ball, OB and pocket, and stroke through to that spot, looking at the OB last.

Jeff Carter: [edited out first part]...What you look at first or last, the cue ball or OB varies from shot to shot. On a long shot, of course I'm going to watch the cue ball go up to the OB. Let your eyes do what they want to do naturally, but keep you head down, that's what's most important.

Michelle Adams: [leans towards looking at the OB last], except on the break shot, or a masse or jump shot, where you need to pay more attention to where you cue tip will contact the cue ball.

Sammy Jones opts for honesty. "I wish I knew! I'd lean towards looking at the OB last, but I have never figured that out. What's interesting to note is that when the top pros line up, Buddy Hall is a good example, the cue tip is the distance of a razor blade's width from the cue ball."

Lorie Jon then explains that this only proves the OB last theory. "It's like that trick shot where you line up, take the cue out of your bridge hand, slide it back in, look away and shoot. Once you've lined up, you don't need to see that cue ball, a top player is going to know they're there."

Summing up the more commonly heard theory is Allen Hopkins who says, "I look first at the cue ball, then OB, then back and forth from the cue ball to OB, always looking at the OB last."

THE FINAL SECRET
There you have it, the secrets of aiming from dozens of the top players who do it best. But then again, is the secret really out? #2 ranked CJ Riley offers that you must aim before you get down on the ball by lining up correctly, of course, but adds that as far as his aiming method itself,
"There are certain things you don't tell. Last time I wrote anything about aiming; somebody copied it and started selling it."
I considered Chinese water torture, but I don't think he would’ve cracked.
I guess the secret may still be out there...somewhere. [End of Article]
The article paraphrased and quoted above was written by Sheri J. Stauch.
AIM HOW DO THE PROS DO IT?

[RoadRunner]

We'll that's just about the way I saw it, there is no system, just shoot pool and it comes.

[Black-dot]

Quote

FASTLARRY wrote:
What a fabulous post, it's all right on the mark, bravo, 5 stars dude....
]

Thanks for the tap-tap-tap. I needed that. For the longest time I was making all sorts of adjustments to my aiming until I figured out this single eye open thing. Other players may have a similar problem and not realize it. I think when someone says they don't like straight in shots that this may be a symptom of the problem. I'm not referring to having to play position after potting the object ball, but simply potting it. I bet people adjust all the time for their eyes being a tad off, and when the shot is a long straight in shot they freak out. No wonder, if what they see as the center of the cue ball is really 1/8 inch to the right of true center, and their aim on the object ball is likewise right of center. Go figure the complications that come up: They're shooting at an object ball that is 4 feet away from them, they're putting 1/8 of an inch or more right english on the cue ball, they're aiming to the right of where they really want to hit the object ball, so they shoot, and if the shot is a bit soft, the english on the cue ball takes strongly on the object ball and throws it even more to the left. So they try to compensate (if they're smart about it, that is) by aiming to the left of center on the object ball, but with they english laden cue ball it still throws left. Sheesh..... no wonder they become exasperated at this shot, as I WAS for about a year until I figured it all out. Now, I KNOW if I was off and why: my stroke wasn't pure, or I focused on the wrong point on the object ball, or didn't pay attention to where the cue tip hit the cue ball, or maybe my mind wandered at the last minute. Whatever it is, after I shoot, I'll KNOW what I did wrong, and not end up scratching my head in confusion...

Cheers!

Black-dot

[FASTLARRY]

Hoppe was the only one who looked at the cue ball last, he may have been right. I have always looked at the cue ball last on the break, over a ball, rails shots, hard low draws and the longer I am playing the more I am beginning to do that, seeing the ob now in a 2nd blured vision. The point is, if your stroke is pure and perfect like mine is, once you are lined up, you have looked up and down, cb, ob, cb, ob, you can now only see cb hit and make, you dont have to see the ob, you trust your stroke.

Talk about a leap of faith on this one. Begin playing around with this only on close up shots.
This is something I usually keep to my self because it freaks everyone out and they can't handle this as its too out of the box for them.
You will also note all mis cues end period if you chalk up properly every time.

[Black-dot]

Quote

FASTLARRY wrote: Begin playing around with this only on close up shots. This is something I usually keep to my self because it freaks everyone out and they can't handle this as its too out of the box for them.

This doesn't freak me out at all. I've noticed that on long, straight in, monster draw type shots where the hit on the cue ball is mighty low, that if that hit is supposed to be center ball and it's a tad off center that the deflection or squirt monster takes over and the cue ball rarely comes straight back, and sometimes it heads straight for the cross corner pocket, proof that the shot was WAY off. I'll give your suggestion a real try, and just as you suggested that when shooting off a rail or over a ball (or when jumping the cue ball too) that a good hit is absolutely necessary. Right now for the off the rail shots I'm starting to see the virtues of a soft tip that with difficulty miscues... Those miscues can cost you the game or match, especially if you give up ball in hand....

Thanks for the tip!

Cheers!

Black-dot

[FASTLARRY]

A better player understands, he finally realizes there are many ways to make a shot and there is not always a clear cut answer how to, there might be 3 ways and any of them would work. Most of my standard shots I am looking at the OB, but not on all. I think you have to find out which ones work best for you which is why I don't want to make any definate statement about this other than play around with it and see.
Newbies want one answer, one way, and they think I am waffling or confusing them which is not the case.
You must stop mis cuing an giving up cue ball in hand to better players, they burn you when you do. You must find the shots you mis cue on and change your method to stop it.

[FASTLARRY]

' date='Oct 17 2004, 12:30 AM said:

A better player understands, he finally realizes there are many ways to make a shot and there is not always a clear cut answer how to, there might be 3 ways and any of them would work. Most of my standard shots I am looking at the OB, but not on all. I think you have to find out which ones work best for you which is why I don't want to make any definate statement about this other than play around with it and see.
Newbies want one answer, one way, and they think I am waffling or confusing them which is not the case.
You must stop mis cuing an giving up cue ball in hand to better players, they burn you when you do. You must find the shots you mis cue on and change your method to stop it.

Aiming, what a hot topic, everybody thinks there is some super hot super secret.

[j.sofinowski]

FASTLARRY, on Oct 12 2008, 02:27 PM, said:

Aiming, what a hot topic, everybody thinks there is some super hot super secret.

How true! I am an APA 7 and my wife is a 3.

She asks me "How do you know where to aim?"

I tell her, "I don't know how, I just KNOW."

There may be a super hot super secret out there somewhere, but I think you have to just shoot 1,000's of balls.

[FASTLARRY]

j.sofinowski, on Nov 12 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

How true! I am an APA 7 and my wife is a 3.

She asks me "How do you know where to aim?"

I tell her, "I don't know how, I just KNOW."

There may be a super hot super secret out there somewhere, but I think you have to just shoot 1,000's of balls.

You understand, once you have potted 1 million balls, you understand. There is no hot secret out there, if there was, I would be on it. This area, is where all the snake oil is, this is where they sell you BS, because you guys are convinced, the hot secret is out there, and the con's love it.