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I've been using a Schon with original shaft for 25 years and Moori hard tip for the last 10 years.
I just bought an OB2 shaft with a Moori Med tip to give it a try.
The reduced deflection is definitely noticeable but I am not sure about the feel.
Perhaps it was going from a hard tip to a med tip or maybe it is the smaller diameter of the shaft but I find the hit to be very soft compared to what I am used to and less feel.
I can't tell if the feel I am missing is from the lessening of the vibration on the hits just yet.
I find it very hard to do any extreme strokes to follow or draw the ball but my left and right English has been easier to control.
I can control super soft shots better than before but that because the shaft his much softer.
Perhaps I just need a harder tip or larger diameter to get the same feeling back as my old Schon Shaft.
I also feel like the OB2 shaft does not screw on my Schon as tight as the original.
Only used it for 3 hours so I will let you know how I feel about this shaft in a few weeks.
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OB2 + Schon
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#2
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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:26 AM
First of all thanks for posting a cue topic in the cue discussion portion of the forum. There's not a lot of action in this section so I will chime in on your topic. The first thing I want to say is that I do not want to insult your intelligence and I do acknowledge your many years of playing. I share what I share so that others fairly new to the game or are learning about the equipment may glean some insight. I can also say that I have spent a lot of money in search of the holy grail of equipment and have come up with only two or three shafts that support a fundamentally good stroke. I do not get freebies and have bought an OB-1, and OB-2, a Predator-Z, and a custom made shaft. I have experience in feeling your pain.
On to your topic, yes the shaft is where 94% to 96$ of the action takes place on a cue. Don't worry so much about the butt, pretty, ugly, or somewhere in between the butt is mostly about how you feel when you look at your cue. Some players move beyond that, some do not, and some just get their cue stolen. .... I see several things happening here:
#1 First is your switch to the OB-2 shaft. I have one. My experience and the experience of others is that it is very whippy. It's like playing with a fly rod. Of course we all know that it is exactly that action on the business end of the shaft that substantially reduces deflection and squirt and somewhat goes with the territory of a 12 mm shaft, but not always. There are other ways to reduce the deflection and I'll get to that later. OB made this shaft with a reduced price to compete directly with the Predator Z shaft. The sound and feel of the hit are significantly different from any other cue due to its construction. I think it's a rather cool and distinctive sound, however be prepared to miss a lot of shots until you get used to it. You will be mumbling, "what the hell?" a lot at first with this shaft. If you decide that you've spent the money and stay with it, the number of missed shots can be reduced by keeping your cue tip more near the center of the CB. With an accelerating stroke you can still get all the action you need as you move closer to the center of the CB. That takes a bit of getting used to.
#2 I suggest that the medium hardness tip is about 95% of why your hit feels so very different. The erroneous notion that the softer tip causes the cue to stay longer on the CB and therefore imparts more spin on the ball comes from the old days of golf when the soft cover balata balls had a lot of action on the golf shot. That notion is simply wrong. Fast Larry will (correctly) tell you that this principle does not transfer to the rock solid CB in pool. His experience, validated by others, is that a well chalked hard tip with an accelerating stoke will work just as well and often better than the medium tip in imparting spin on the CB. If you put a hard tip on your OB-2 you will get some of your old feel back.
#3 We learn that when trouble shooing a system or performing an experiment that we change only one variable at a time. You have introduced two variables (shaft and tip) simultaneously. So if you change the tip (one change only) you can decide what impact that has on that change in feel that you are discussing.
#4 Editorial comment here, IMHO the "professional" players are that, not because they support themselves with their winnings, they support themselves by touting and marketing products. I have allowed myself to be the victim of this hype and have found out several things: These people are whores, they are paid money and get free equipment to say and do things at the behest of the sponsor. Excellent players who spend eight to twelve hours on the table can play with just about anything and will make adjustments accordingly AND the top players and their sponsors don't tell you that their shafts are about as "stock" as a NASCAR Monte Carlo is "stock". Just because you see a logo on a pro's cue does not mean that it is what you get when you order one.
#5 If you truly do want a laminate, the multi-piece shaft the Predator-Z acts and feels a lot more like the solid shaft than any of the OB products and Predator shafts are the choice of many players which is why they get the price for it. It's a really great 12 mm shaft and is in demand as well it should be and is why it is so pricey. However... I have not talked about the elephant in the living room yet and that is the traditional solid shaft. Fast Larry has re-worked the solid Balabushka and others to maximize it's effectiveness and has never had a complaint from anyone who has had him (his shaft guy) re-work a shaft. Its just a big leap of faith resulting in a sphincter moment when you ship a perfectly good shaft off to him with no knowledge of what you're going to get back.
So yes, the 'new' stuff is really great and there are several ways in getting the action on the CB with equipment with a marginal stroke, (not yours of course) and that's what drives the industry. Its really a jungle out there to cut through the BS and hype to find what you are comfortable with. For the newbies I must also throw in that there is no substitute for the smooth, accelerating stroke of a master to make the CB dance. Searching for that holy grail through equipment can really screw up a stoke and game as one makes adjustments for equipment that, although advertised by the best in the business, is often counterproductive to a fundamentally sound stroke.
Good luck!
On to your topic, yes the shaft is where 94% to 96$ of the action takes place on a cue. Don't worry so much about the butt, pretty, ugly, or somewhere in between the butt is mostly about how you feel when you look at your cue. Some players move beyond that, some do not, and some just get their cue stolen. .... I see several things happening here:
#1 First is your switch to the OB-2 shaft. I have one. My experience and the experience of others is that it is very whippy. It's like playing with a fly rod. Of course we all know that it is exactly that action on the business end of the shaft that substantially reduces deflection and squirt and somewhat goes with the territory of a 12 mm shaft, but not always. There are other ways to reduce the deflection and I'll get to that later. OB made this shaft with a reduced price to compete directly with the Predator Z shaft. The sound and feel of the hit are significantly different from any other cue due to its construction. I think it's a rather cool and distinctive sound, however be prepared to miss a lot of shots until you get used to it. You will be mumbling, "what the hell?" a lot at first with this shaft. If you decide that you've spent the money and stay with it, the number of missed shots can be reduced by keeping your cue tip more near the center of the CB. With an accelerating stroke you can still get all the action you need as you move closer to the center of the CB. That takes a bit of getting used to.
#2 I suggest that the medium hardness tip is about 95% of why your hit feels so very different. The erroneous notion that the softer tip causes the cue to stay longer on the CB and therefore imparts more spin on the ball comes from the old days of golf when the soft cover balata balls had a lot of action on the golf shot. That notion is simply wrong. Fast Larry will (correctly) tell you that this principle does not transfer to the rock solid CB in pool. His experience, validated by others, is that a well chalked hard tip with an accelerating stoke will work just as well and often better than the medium tip in imparting spin on the CB. If you put a hard tip on your OB-2 you will get some of your old feel back.
#3 We learn that when trouble shooing a system or performing an experiment that we change only one variable at a time. You have introduced two variables (shaft and tip) simultaneously. So if you change the tip (one change only) you can decide what impact that has on that change in feel that you are discussing.
#4 Editorial comment here, IMHO the "professional" players are that, not because they support themselves with their winnings, they support themselves by touting and marketing products. I have allowed myself to be the victim of this hype and have found out several things: These people are whores, they are paid money and get free equipment to say and do things at the behest of the sponsor. Excellent players who spend eight to twelve hours on the table can play with just about anything and will make adjustments accordingly AND the top players and their sponsors don't tell you that their shafts are about as "stock" as a NASCAR Monte Carlo is "stock". Just because you see a logo on a pro's cue does not mean that it is what you get when you order one.
#5 If you truly do want a laminate, the multi-piece shaft the Predator-Z acts and feels a lot more like the solid shaft than any of the OB products and Predator shafts are the choice of many players which is why they get the price for it. It's a really great 12 mm shaft and is in demand as well it should be and is why it is so pricey. However... I have not talked about the elephant in the living room yet and that is the traditional solid shaft. Fast Larry has re-worked the solid Balabushka and others to maximize it's effectiveness and has never had a complaint from anyone who has had him (his shaft guy) re-work a shaft. Its just a big leap of faith resulting in a sphincter moment when you ship a perfectly good shaft off to him with no knowledge of what you're going to get back.
So yes, the 'new' stuff is really great and there are several ways in getting the action on the CB with equipment with a marginal stroke, (not yours of course) and that's what drives the industry. Its really a jungle out there to cut through the BS and hype to find what you are comfortable with. For the newbies I must also throw in that there is no substitute for the smooth, accelerating stroke of a master to make the CB dance. Searching for that holy grail through equipment can really screw up a stoke and game as one makes adjustments for equipment that, although advertised by the best in the business, is often counterproductive to a fundamentally sound stroke.
Good luck!
#3
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Posted 02 July 2010 - 02:06 PM
Harky, on Jul 1 2010, 06:26 AM, said:
First of all thanks for posting a cue topic in the cue discussion portion of the forum. There's not a lot of action in this section so I will chime in on your topic. The first thing I want to say is that I do not want to insult your intelligence and I do acknowledge your many years of playing. I share what I share so that others fairly new to the game or are learning about the equipment may glean some insight. I can also say that I have spent a lot of money in search of the holy grail of equipment and have come up with only two or three shafts that support a fundamentally good stroke. I do not get freebies and have bought an OB-1, and OB-2, a Predator-Z, and a custom made shaft. I have experience in feeling your pain.
On to your topic, yes the shaft is where 94% to 96$ of the action takes place on a cue. Don't worry so much about the butt, pretty, ugly, or somewhere in between the butt is mostly about how you feel when you look at your cue. Some players move beyond that, some do not, and some just get their cue stolen. .... I see several things happening here:
#1 First is your switch to the OB-2 shaft. I have one. My experience and the experience of others is that it is very whippy. It's like playing with a fly rod. Of course we all know that it is exactly that action on the business end of the shaft that substantially reduces deflection and squirt and somewhat goes with the territory of a 12 mm shaft, but not always. There are other ways to reduce the deflection and I'll get to that later. OB made this shaft with a reduced price to compete directly with the Predator Z shaft. The sound and feel of the hit are significantly different from any other cue due to its construction. I think it's a rather cool and distinctive sound, however be prepared to miss a lot of shots until you get used to it. You will be mumbling, "what the hell?" a lot at first with this shaft. If you decide that you've spent the money and stay with it, the number of missed shots can be reduced by keeping your cue tip more near the center of the CB. With an accelerating stroke you can still get all the action you need as you move closer to the center of the CB. That takes a bit of getting used to.
#2 I suggest that the medium hardness tip is about 95% of why your hit feels so very different. The erroneous notion that the softer tip causes the cue to stay longer on the CB and therefore imparts more spin on the ball comes from the old days of golf when the soft cover balata balls had a lot of action on the golf shot. That notion is simply wrong. Fast Larry will (correctly) tell you that this principle does not transfer to the rock solid CB in pool. His experience, validated by others, is that a well chalked hard tip with an accelerating stoke will work just as well and often better than the medium tip in imparting spin on the CB. If you put a hard tip on your OB-2 you will get some of your old feel back.
#3 We learn that when trouble shooing a system or performing an experiment that we change only one variable at a time. You have introduced two variables (shaft and tip) simultaneously. So if you change the tip (one change only) you can decide what impact that has on that change in feel that you are discussing.
#4 Editorial comment here, IMHO the "professional" players are that, not because they support themselves with their winnings, they support themselves by touting and marketing products. I have allowed myself to be the victim of this hype and have found out several things: These people are whores, they are paid money and get free equipment to say and do things at the behest of the sponsor. Excellent players who spend eight to twelve hours on the table can play with just about anything and will make adjustments accordingly AND the top players and their sponsors don't tell you that their shafts are about as "stock" as a NASCAR Monte Carlo is "stock". Just because you see a logo on a pro's cue does not mean that it is what you get when you order one.
#5 If you truly do want a laminate, the multi-piece shaft the Predator-Z acts and feels a lot more like the solid shaft than any of the OB products and Predator shafts are the choice of many players which is why they get the price for it. It's a really great 12 mm shaft and is in demand as well it should be and is why it is so pricey. However... I have not talked about the elephant in the living room yet and that is the traditional solid shaft. Fast Larry has re-worked the solid Balabushka and others to maximize it's effectiveness and has never had a complaint from anyone who has had him (his shaft guy) re-work a shaft. Its just a big leap of faith resulting in a sphincter moment when you ship a perfectly good shaft off to him with no knowledge of what you're going to get back.
So yes, the 'new' stuff is really great and there are several ways in getting the action on the CB with equipment with a marginal stroke, (not yours of course) and that's what drives the industry. Its really a jungle out there to cut through the BS and hype to find what you are comfortable with. For the newbies I must also throw in that there is no substitute for the smooth, accelerating stroke of a master to make the CB dance. Searching for that holy grail through equipment can really screw up a stoke and game as one makes adjustments for equipment that, although advertised by the best in the business, is often counterproductive to a fundamentally sound stroke.
Good luck!
On to your topic, yes the shaft is where 94% to 96$ of the action takes place on a cue. Don't worry so much about the butt, pretty, ugly, or somewhere in between the butt is mostly about how you feel when you look at your cue. Some players move beyond that, some do not, and some just get their cue stolen. .... I see several things happening here:
#1 First is your switch to the OB-2 shaft. I have one. My experience and the experience of others is that it is very whippy. It's like playing with a fly rod. Of course we all know that it is exactly that action on the business end of the shaft that substantially reduces deflection and squirt and somewhat goes with the territory of a 12 mm shaft, but not always. There are other ways to reduce the deflection and I'll get to that later. OB made this shaft with a reduced price to compete directly with the Predator Z shaft. The sound and feel of the hit are significantly different from any other cue due to its construction. I think it's a rather cool and distinctive sound, however be prepared to miss a lot of shots until you get used to it. You will be mumbling, "what the hell?" a lot at first with this shaft. If you decide that you've spent the money and stay with it, the number of missed shots can be reduced by keeping your cue tip more near the center of the CB. With an accelerating stroke you can still get all the action you need as you move closer to the center of the CB. That takes a bit of getting used to.
#2 I suggest that the medium hardness tip is about 95% of why your hit feels so very different. The erroneous notion that the softer tip causes the cue to stay longer on the CB and therefore imparts more spin on the ball comes from the old days of golf when the soft cover balata balls had a lot of action on the golf shot. That notion is simply wrong. Fast Larry will (correctly) tell you that this principle does not transfer to the rock solid CB in pool. His experience, validated by others, is that a well chalked hard tip with an accelerating stoke will work just as well and often better than the medium tip in imparting spin on the CB. If you put a hard tip on your OB-2 you will get some of your old feel back.
#3 We learn that when trouble shooing a system or performing an experiment that we change only one variable at a time. You have introduced two variables (shaft and tip) simultaneously. So if you change the tip (one change only) you can decide what impact that has on that change in feel that you are discussing.
#4 Editorial comment here, IMHO the "professional" players are that, not because they support themselves with their winnings, they support themselves by touting and marketing products. I have allowed myself to be the victim of this hype and have found out several things: These people are whores, they are paid money and get free equipment to say and do things at the behest of the sponsor. Excellent players who spend eight to twelve hours on the table can play with just about anything and will make adjustments accordingly AND the top players and their sponsors don't tell you that their shafts are about as "stock" as a NASCAR Monte Carlo is "stock". Just because you see a logo on a pro's cue does not mean that it is what you get when you order one.
#5 If you truly do want a laminate, the multi-piece shaft the Predator-Z acts and feels a lot more like the solid shaft than any of the OB products and Predator shafts are the choice of many players which is why they get the price for it. It's a really great 12 mm shaft and is in demand as well it should be and is why it is so pricey. However... I have not talked about the elephant in the living room yet and that is the traditional solid shaft. Fast Larry has re-worked the solid Balabushka and others to maximize it's effectiveness and has never had a complaint from anyone who has had him (his shaft guy) re-work a shaft. Its just a big leap of faith resulting in a sphincter moment when you ship a perfectly good shaft off to him with no knowledge of what you're going to get back.
So yes, the 'new' stuff is really great and there are several ways in getting the action on the CB with equipment with a marginal stroke, (not yours of course) and that's what drives the industry. Its really a jungle out there to cut through the BS and hype to find what you are comfortable with. For the newbies I must also throw in that there is no substitute for the smooth, accelerating stroke of a master to make the CB dance. Searching for that holy grail through equipment can really screw up a stoke and game as one makes adjustments for equipment that, although advertised by the best in the business, is often counterproductive to a fundamentally sound stroke.
Good luck!
Great post!
I just wanted to give you an update. Day 2 of playing with this shaft has not been as bad as I thought it would be. It really isn't very forgiving so it forced me to aim much more carefully and think about positioning more (Leave more angles).
With the smaller diameter of the tip, what used to be center can be a little off and cause English. Now I pay attention to make sure it is really centered.
I find myself making the shots that I apply English and find it hard to hit straight. I used to get away with the flaws in my stroke but not anymore.
I finally ran out a few racks playing 8 ball so it should be a matter of time before I am back to shooting the way I was (or better).
I do believe that overtime, this will improve my game. I am discovering many flaws in my stroke and I can really whip the ball with less effort.
#4
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Posted 04 July 2010 - 10:29 AM
I'm glad you are doing better with your new shaft. I am still so much a kid at heart and just cannot wait to get a new toy delivered and am always a bit freaked out when it arrives and does something different from which I am used to. I'm also glad to know that I'm not alone with this particular shaft. I cannot tell you many times when I first got this shaft I missed shots by inches, or thought I was cutting the object to the ball to the left and - blam - it shoots off the the right! What the hell? New shaft or not I thought I was getting worse, fast. My first thought was, "I've got to go back to fly fishing because my pool playing is in the toilet." I thought that this new shaft was going to be the cat's ass. Not so. That's when I went back to the most basic and BORING lesson taught by the good teachers... center ball hit! That notion also took me back to the basic diagnostic exercise, which also is boring... I took the Arimith 'measels ball' (any dark striped ball will do as a CB) and started hitting half or three quarters table dead straight shots and watched for CB spin after the hit. FL says most people hit the CB just a bit on the left and I thought, "Not me, I've done this enough to know where the center of the CB is for God's sake." NOT..... It took me a lot of those straight in shots with tiny changes in where I stroked the CB on what I thought was the middle only find the dead center of the CB was not where I thought it was. It was humbling, truly. That also does not speak to the fact that most players, including me, also revert to the bad habit of finishing my stroke just a little, or sometimes a lot, to the left of the stroke line. After playing a very average game for many years with this natural stroke, albeit flawed and even though I know better, I will still through force of habit revert back to it. That also will put a spin on the CB and THEN... I'm really confused until I realize what I've done.
I've often thought that a great teaching tool would be to make a training shaft or cue with a six or seven mm tip to force a dead center hit on the CB. With such a setup any fault would be magnified many times. From what I've read, along with solid fundamentals drilled into them from childhood, that's why so many snooker players who use the pencil thin tips and shafts are so darned accurate when they go to a traditional 13 mm shaft and tip. Duh!
Everybody has his or her preferences and it is only when we are challenged by something new that we learn something. So what I've learned (for me and only me) is that I put the OB-2 shaft away and went back to the Predator Z. Between the OB-1 and the OB-2 and the Predator Z I have $600+ of 'learning'. Education is not cheap.
Of course our host will tell you, kindly, that you can do whatever you want. That's what is so wonderful about life in a free world, but the ultimate shaft and design is the 11.5 Juiced shaft re-worked by FL. Now there's a leap in faith: to sent a perfectly good shaft that matches your cue and send it to a stranger, pay the money, and hope you like it when it comes back.
So much to learn and so little time. It's great to find somebody who is willing to read my fecal material and to find a post on this site that is related to pool playing. All in all it is the BEST site I've found on the subject of pool and everything else in life.
Have a good week.
I've often thought that a great teaching tool would be to make a training shaft or cue with a six or seven mm tip to force a dead center hit on the CB. With such a setup any fault would be magnified many times. From what I've read, along with solid fundamentals drilled into them from childhood, that's why so many snooker players who use the pencil thin tips and shafts are so darned accurate when they go to a traditional 13 mm shaft and tip. Duh!
Everybody has his or her preferences and it is only when we are challenged by something new that we learn something. So what I've learned (for me and only me) is that I put the OB-2 shaft away and went back to the Predator Z. Between the OB-1 and the OB-2 and the Predator Z I have $600+ of 'learning'. Education is not cheap.
Of course our host will tell you, kindly, that you can do whatever you want. That's what is so wonderful about life in a free world, but the ultimate shaft and design is the 11.5 Juiced shaft re-worked by FL. Now there's a leap in faith: to sent a perfectly good shaft that matches your cue and send it to a stranger, pay the money, and hope you like it when it comes back. So much to learn and so little time. It's great to find somebody who is willing to read my fecal material and to find a post on this site that is related to pool playing. All in all it is the BEST site I've found on the subject of pool and everything else in life.
Have a good week.
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