[Sodapop]

I have had numerous layer tips fall apart on me after paying 30 to 40 bucks to have someone put them on, I have tried talisman and sniper they have both fell apart on me numerous times.

I am switching tips I am thinking of going to the very hard water buffalo, or maybe the triangle. Does anyone have any experience with either of these to tips? Is the water buffalo to hard to play with? How does the triangle play?

Also they did not fall apart because i don;t know how to shape them, I never shape them I was always afraid to shape a layered tip and they still fall apart.

[Sodapop]

Thanks for the input Poolsleuth.

[seymore15074]

A Triangle is all the tip you will ever need. Put it on, and give it time...

[roadrunner711]

You are doing something wrong then. I have never had a problem with them and use both Morri and Talisman.

[onebigred51]

What the hell are you doing to your tips? I have been playing for over 20 years and have never had a tip come apart; a few fell off.
I have used LePro, Mouri, and many that were just put on by a local shop. None of these ever fell apart. I shoot 3 to 4 times a week on leagues and in tournaments. I also shoot daily in my home. So I wear out my tips just about yearly.
If you are paying 30 - 40 bucks for a tip to be installed you must live in a high rent district. It cost me 10 for LePro and such and 20 for Mouri and other quality tips.
A month ago I put a Talisman X on two cues and a Talisman H on another. I feel these tips are more accurate than anyone I have had (I used the shooting from the spot drill and found that I could bring the cue call back to my tip nearly every time with the Talisman and had only about a 30-40% accuracy with a Mouri Med.. Additionally, many think that with a hard tip one would have more miss-cues. The only time I miss-cue is when I grab the butt of the cue. It seems that the Talisman hold the chalk better.
So thanks to Fast Larry for the introduction to the Talisman tip.

[biglouieone]

I used the triangle for some time and it never failed me.
I since went to the Taliman m about 6 months ago and that same tip is still on and working fine.

[Sodapop]

Talisman plays good just fell apart on me many times i don't pay $30 to $40 to get it installed the cost of the tip plus the cost of the install equals 30 to 40 dollors. maybe the guys who put them on don't know what they are doing when they shape the tip, and they are damaging them, but I've had enough. Here is an article on the water buffalo tip by bob meucci.

http://searchwarp.com/swa18091.htm

Let me know what you think, one of the local pros who wins most of the tourneys in my area told me to try it it's what he uses.

[FASTLARRY]

TIP Layered pig skin tips. How to use, dress and file a tip. 4 pages 9-14-03, rev I, 6-27-05, rev II 9-30-06, 3-7-07, CR, Fast Larry Guninger all rights reserved. Published in DC, bpn, czm, upp, ppt, flp, btt., rsb.

Most tip failures are caused by the player. Some are by installers. Do not put the tip on your self, find a qualified professional who does this for a living. He should be using 411 locite glue, that is the best bond. If he is using super glue from WalMart you have a problem. Ask him what type of glue he is using. Ask to see it. To insure he is not charging you for a premium Morri or Talisman tip and then switching to a cheap knockoff so when you have left and he works on it when you are out of sight do this. Buy the tips from me. Pay him $10 to install them and insist on watching the job and being there when it occurs. Stay there so he can not switch tips on you.
There is counterfeit Morris on the market now and these are the ones failing. Morri changed the packages to help fight this problem. You might have ordered a Talisman and he installed the fake morri. After its on you then can not tell. If you did not buy the tip from me ask to see the tip. Know how to ID it as real and then don’t leave until you see it go on.

The installer could be damaging the layers when he is trimming the tip down being in too much of a hurry and putting too much force on the layers. I shape mine with a simple sandpaper file after I install it. I do not sell knock offs or bad tips. If I put a tip on and it fails within a reasonable period of time, I redo the job for free.

Once the tip is on never break with it or hit masses or jump shots. You want dedicated cues and tips for these shots. Just play with your cue.
Use only a sandpaper file and get lessons on how to do it right. Never lay the williards disc on the ground between your feet and then put the tip on your shaft in the hole and begin spinning the cue around with force. This will cause the glue between the layers to break down and tip failure will follow. Never use the tip pik or any device with dagger like stakes which also pull layers apart. These are the most common causes of layered tip failures and players make these mistakes and then get on the net and bash the product. Get rid of your shaper which is probably the problem and find a sandpaper file.
If you buy a tip from me and it fails, return it and I will replace it with 2 tips. I have only seen one bad Talisman tip in the last thousand I have gone through. I have yet to have one fail on me during play. The quality is simply out standing.
A soft elk master or a medium LePro will mushroom out and you have to sand off the over hang. A hard tip like a triangle or all of the layered tips will not.
Do not listen to the 3-c crowd. They see guys like Blomdahl using a soft tip and letting it mushroom and hang out over the sides of the ferrule, thinking they get more tip contact, and its then monkey see monkey do with that crowd. A hard tip will never play into shape. You sand it into shape and it stays there.
Putting water on the top of the tip is nuts. Its already hard as hell, you don’t want it harder. Only do this to your opponent when he is on bathroom break, then lightly chalk him back up, which is why my cue always goes into the head with me.
Use a talisman, they are just as good or better than the moori and cost a lot less. Put on the Talismans that are already crowned and shaped. You end up with a thinner tip which is what you want. It performs better than a thick tip. Go inspect Mike Massey's morri and you will see he keeps it very thin, damn near to the ferrule. If you put on a Morri it looks like a soup can, it’s too thick and requires massive shaping which can loosen the glue between the layers so the less sanding and grinding you can do the better. It will be months until it wears down into the right thickness and then performs correctly.
Once the tip is on I shape it to a dime which will out perform the old nickel most of the old timers used to play with. I use the new steel carbide files which do not require sandpaper, last forever and take the tip down faster. When I shape the new Tailsman XX break tip which is as hard as they can make one it's a must as sandpaper takes forever with this one.
Once I think I have it sanded in the right way filing down at 45 degree strokes I then take my williards metal dime disk and make some turns on the tip which grinds me a very even edge around the tip. I only use a few light turns with this tool. Now and then I will turn it 2 or 3 times just to set a flat upper edge. Be gentle with it. Never lay it on the floor and put your tip in it with your feet on both sides and vigorously twist it like you are trying to start a fire using two sticks. This is what causes delaminating and they blame it on the tip when its bozo stupidity twisted the glued layers apart. Never use a tip pik with the sharp daggers as well as they pull the layers apart. You must use the sandpaper file now and need to take a lesson from a good player on how it’s done.
I expectorate, "spit on my index finger and rub it around the sides of the tip to harden it. When it dries I take a piece of leather that comes with the carbide file, put it inside it and rub the sides with the leather to further polish and set it. I then take a black sharpie and color the outside of the tip.
I then draw a red line with a sharpie using a ruler from the tip to the edge of the ferrule which is the red dot concept forcing me to shoot using the same place in the wood and tip each time. You now chalk the tip using only master blue and you are ready to go. On the softer tips they held chalk better and I used to advise just make very light down strokes putting on a very thin covering and never squeaking the chalk. On the very hard tips that advice no longer holds. They are difficult to put chalk on so you must learn how to chalk correctly and spend more time doing it right. You must chalk after every shot or you will miss cue. On some of the tips, the H, x and XX you have to grind or squeak the chalk to get it to go on and stay on. When you make down strokes with the chalk they must be with force.
Every now and then I use my sandpaper files trying to take off as little leather as possible and to just rough up and loosen the surface. I carry two, one with 220 and the other with 100 grit. The carbine file is like 50 grit. I only have the 220 in my case and the other two are in my tip tool case. I carry a pro Williards tipping machine with me so I can always make a professional tip installation in my room or on the hood of my car.
If you are now on a medium tip like a lepro it will take some time and adjustment. The talismans come in s, m, h, x, xx
The truth is the harder the tip to better the performance, more draw and power to the follow. They are all very hard, so the s is real soft hard as hell. The M is medium hard etc.
If you are now playing with a soft tip, elk master or a medium lepro, then move up to a triangle single layer with is like the S Talisman, or begin using the S talisman. Once you have adjusted to it move up to the M which is what most of the pro 9 ball tour is using and so am I on that tour. For my artistic shots I have shafts with the H and X when I perform my power shots in exhibitions. There it does not matter if I miscue, I get all the attempts I want to. On the pro tour miss two shots a match against a top player and you usually lose so going above the M means you get better performance but the chances of miscue rises where a single flub can cost you a match.
It takes you at least a week to learn to play with a new cue or shaft, same when you move up to the hard layered tips. They deflect more than the soft tips, why, same reason a very hard ferrule, like Ivory deflects more than a soft ferrule. You have to play until you get used to the different hit which is minor but it is there so be cognizant of this and do not give up on the tip too early. Some people try them, miss shots, miss cue and bail out and run back to their lepro. If you commit to stay with this tip good or bad for a full month, you will never go back to soft again.
For access to the Talisman tips for the best price on the net, or for any of the others sanders and tip tools mentioned just email me at fastlarry@bellsouth.net.
Fastlarry @bellsouth.net

An internet question is asked?
There is some controversy as to what tool should be used on a layered tip. I use a Tip Pik on my Moori M tip. I do not pound the thing as hard as I can into the tip. I simply tap it like you are supposed to do. I only penetrate the first layer. People keep saying that a Tip Pik can cause layer separation and delaminating. I've been using one on my Moori for a long time now. I have had NO problems. What does everyone else think?

FL RESPONDS: Never use any tip pic on any layered tip. It can pull the layers apart, break the glue seal. The only tool I use is one of the $3.00 long pieces of curved plastic I have 100 grit sandpaper in and I use it to hand file the dime curve I want on my tip. This is a skill that must be taught and learned, but then it is worth it. I sell all of these $20 fancy cue tip tools, I do not use any of them my self. I don’t understand why any one wants to tear little holes and let air in a layered tip that just is not the smart thing to do. I use a 2nd sand paper file with 220 grit in it when I just want to buff the tip some and not totally reshape it.

The reason I like using Talismans is they are already shaped and domed. The Morris come in a soup can stack flat on top and require massive shaping which can break these layers. They are too tall and thick and require a third to be taken off to have a tip that plays right.

Net response: Hmmm...I have not had any problems with this and I've been using a Tip Pik on my Moori M tip for almost a year now. I lightly tap the pik into the top layer. It doesn't get stuck in it. I don't penetrate beyond the first layer. I have an Ultimate Tip Tool. Maybe I will try using that. It has dime and nickel shapers.

FL RESPONDS: You are careful and got by with it; others are more aggressive and have separated layers. You will find your draw and overall performance will be higher going from a nickel to a dime shape. I actually use a slope a little more than a dime.

Net response: I am always careful with my cue. I think my tip is already dime shaped. What is the best way to re-shape a tip with an Ultimate Tip Tool? I'm afraid to scuff the heck out of a layered tip.

FL RESPONDS: Lose all of your old tip tools, use a sand paper file. Or the next step is to learn how to properly use the tools you have for your tip. The tip pik is not supposed to penetrate any layer on the tip. Ask any tip repair man to show you how he uses these tools, these guys really know. You are NOT supposed to stab the tip with it. If you read the little instructions on the package the tip pik comes in you will see they tell you to place the tool on the tip push down slightly and twist it in a clockwise motion. The tips of the needles then lift small pieces of the leather on the tip. You repeat this over the entire tip. What this does is when you chalk the tip some of the chalk is ingrained in the tip. My suggestion is if possible after using the tip pik on the tip take a cue ball and lightly tap the tip with it and rechalk the tip again. This will help keep consistency in your hit while playing. The ones stabbing their layered tips are literally pulling those layers apart.

Tip piks are tearing and delaminating these pig skin tips apart. People have told me they have torn these tips up by putting the cup shaper between their toes, sticking the tip into the hole and spinning the shaft in the hands to shape and wear down the tip. This is a big no no. You can do this using a single layered Triangle, but with any layered tip you must be more careful and apply less force, no twisting or turning of the tip. Remember you have 6 to 10 very thin delicate stips of leather glued together and it does not take that much force to tear them apart from each other. When you buy a layered tip, you must learn how to dress it properly. These tips failures are being caused by the owners who have not been trained how to shape them. I have never had one delaminate on me because I shape them correctly. The sad part is these owners who are screwing up these tips are going on the net and saying the tip is bad, when it is them who caused the failure and try and ever get them to admit that one.

I stay with my simple sandpaper file and try to file as little as possible. Most miss cues are from improper or sloppy chalking and you are all filing your tips too much. I may sandpaper the sides of the tip to keep it flush with the ferrule so there is no overhang I can feel. I use a hollow core tube that compresses the tip down on the sides to harden them. I apply spit on the side of the tip to harden it. I paint the side of the tip with a black marker pen so the tip gives me a visual reference plane.

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[Sodapop]

Thanks for the article FL. Alot of time and work went into that, as do most of your postings.

Well i had a Water Buffalo put on my cue yesterday and i am very happy with the hit and how easy it is to move the cueball. Out of all tips I have ever tried I can say I think I will like this one the most. I have only tried LePro's, Talismans soft, medium & hard, a sniper, and a moori soft 3.

Plus I can use my willard cue tip shaper again, for that perfect dime shape, which I could'nt use with my talisman tips.

Larry if you have never experimented with one I would like you to try it and post what you think of it. Unbiased feedback though as I know you love the talisman.

[FASTLARRY]

I use my Williard to keep the edges true. I just turn it once or twice now and then keeping the force low.
It's when you lay it on the ground and begin making a fire by twisting the cue you cause deliminations that way.
Tips are like cues, cars, women, nobody will ever agree which one is best.

I was in the Bob Meucci camp for about 4 years. I left Schuler when he passed on and went with Bob’s cue. I have been in his factory many times and his home. There are a lot of things bob does not know about. He thinks he does, but he is wrong and being a very stubborn man that traps him. His 2nd fault is he feels he is smarter than all of you therefore there is nothing you can tell or teach him. Bob is basically a giant Bozo con man. He will flim flam you into tamale is you listen to the guy. He screwed all of his dealers by selling direct to the public through his daughters side company ran in the Meucci office called budget billiards. He dumped all the pros he sponsored, stopped going to all shows and went bankrupt. He went down from 125 people to less than 10.
That is why I left and went with another cue. He was basically off screwing around on the ranch while His bozo MORON son in law ran the company right into the ground. That is what you deserve when you leave the business and let your kids and inlaws run it for you.

He wanted me to use a soft tip and then press it for my masses. That was totally wrong.
I hit all of my masses on my videos with a pressed triangle. The harder the tip, the more spin and power you get.

He gave me a handful of those water buffalo tips years ago he said were so great. No question I could do some neat stuff with them but I told him I would not use them. They were too hard, over the edge and were hard to chalk and caused miss cues.
For that same reason I don’t like to sell the green Talisman water buffalos.

GO INTO ASK FAST LARRY COLUMN IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT TIPS. I'LL PUT UP MORE ARTICLES THERE FOR YOU TO STUDY.

This is something few know. The Talisman or Morri is basically the same tip, the only difference is one charges much more than the other one being more famous. There is now about 10 copies of that and wanna bee’s. The talisman out plays the morri because it comes domed and goes on thinner. I can buy them in the thick soup can design and end up with a morri deader play. You will spend months breaking in and down the Morri until it will then play equal to the Talisman. A thick fat tip absorbs too much energy. That is why the thinner tip draws better. Same on the break and jump.

The triangle is the poor man’s Morri, it will perform just like it. It won’t last as long.
The Morri or Talisman M, is a tad softer than the Triangle. This is why I play on tour with the H, which is now a tad harder than the Morri M.
I use the X for draws in my show and the XX for jumps and breaking.

You don’t need to send me any tips, I go to all the main shows and I see everything that comes out. I try everything. I am the only pro that went through all 32 tips and tested every one which was an experiment that went on for 2 full months.

Who won, Talisman, Morri, Triangle in that order.



[ Edited by FASTLARRY on 2007/3/8 12:13 ]

[ Edited by FASTLARRY on 2007/3/8 12:15 ]

[Pelican]

Larry, do you think that since he built a new plant he will rebound?

Pel

[FASTLARRY]

A cue maker has to be in the plant every day, working with his people, watching what they are doing. He can't go in his factory as saw dust makes him break out. When the boss is not around, cues go out the back door which happend to him. His glory days are gone. He was selling a $400 cue and the Chinese knocked it off and began selling ones that played just like his for $125. That is why really did him in, he had nothing on the low end.

He is a retail operation now. Like Gandy going under and now selling direct on the net, things change.
His plans are to let people walk in the front door and buy direct and make high end stuff going out the back door. He tries to play and con the dealers.

[Pelican]

I have been a dealer of his since about 2000. I haven't ordered any cues in over a year as the last time I ordered 6 cues and they drizzled one at a time over about a 7 or 8 month period. They sent me an email on a new cue line called "Bandido" but I don't know whether to fool with them or not.

Meucci are very popular in our area. A lot of unknowing folks think they are really top of the line stuff. They used to be a good quality production cue, no Schon or Joss, but a decent cue. I don't know if they will bring back some quality control with this new plant. They need to hire me at 250K a year to go run their operation :-o . Would you call Bob and recommend that?

Later, Pel

[FASTLARRY]

That means nothing, the guy could have screwed his tip up with an improper tool and you just saw the end result.
He could have bought a bad fake tip. You send me a letter to Fast Larry Guninger, P>O> Box 956130, Duluth, Ga 30044, inside put a note, send me one free talisman
state s m h x
Fold up inside a 2nd stamped self addressed envelop and you will get a genuine tip. Put it on right, shape it right and play with it. Then report back please.

Don't jump to conclusions until you have all the facts, please is all I ask. The amount of fakes out there is very large.

[FASTLARRY]

Just buy your tips from me, me, you can trust, buy from strangers, you asked for it.

[Demondrew]

One of the biggest problems Talisman was having was installers were putting the tip on upside down. All new Talismans are comming with the word glue on one side and the hardness on the other.
I got this from a local well connected installer/repairman after I complained about a Talisman tip delaminating. (and he put a new one on for free)

[FASTLARRY]

Demondrew, on May 22 2009, 12:44 AM, said:

One of the biggest problems Talisman was having was installers were putting the tip on upside down. All new Talismans are comming with the word glue on one side and the hardness on the other.
I got this from a local well connected installer/repairman after I complained about a Talisman tip delaminating. (and he put a new one on for free)

Yes, if you look at a Morri, its built like a soup can, hard to tell up from down, which is why I now only stock and domed Talismans, they are already shaped and there is no way to install one upside down. Live and learn...And the 2nd big tip I got was, hold on, senior moment: my memory insnt as good as it used to be, my memory isnt as good as it used to be, my memory isnt as good as it used to be.
When you get old you lose 2 things, the first one is your memory, when I remember what the 2nd one is, I'll get back to you.

[MitchAlsup]

FASTLARRY, on May 22 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

...And the 2nd big tip I got was, hold on, senior moment: my memory insnt as good as it used to be, my memory isnt as good as it used to be, my memory isnt as good as it used to be.
When you get old you lose 2 things, the first one is your memory, when I remember what the 2nd one is, I'll get back to you.

The way I heard it::

When you get old, memory is always the second thing to go.
What's the first?
I can't remember!